I just has the distinct displeasure of trying, unsuccessfully, to help a friend obtain AT&T DSL service at his home. Right now he has phone service from a competitive phone company, but what he wants to do is get the least expensive DSL service that AT&T offers (the variety they have been advertising on TV, that does not require the customer to have their dial tone), then use VoIP for his phone service — but he doesn’t want to disconnect his current voice service until everything else is up and working. Apparently, he might as well be wanting a flying car or a time machine. Even putting aside the issue of the competitive phone service, the first thing that needs to be done is to get the DSL installed, and if ever a company acts like they don’t want your business, it’s AT&T.
On his first attempt, he picked an AT&T number out of the phone book and called that. That attempt apparently came to a screeching halt when AT&T told him they could not install DSL as long as he had phone service from the competitive phone company. Actually, there’s no TECHNICAL reason that you can’t provide DSL from one company and voice from another on the same pair, but for whatever reason it’s apparently just not done. I wasn’t listening in on that call so I don’t know all the details, but after that we did a three-way call to see if we’d have any better luck (and honestly, I wanted to hear if it was as bad as he’d described it).
The first thing we did was to call the number that is advertised on the AT&T commercials for $19.95 DSL. That, apparently, is your ticket into the seven circles of telephone hell. If I’d been playing a drinking game, taking a drink every time we heard the phrase “your call is important to us”, I would not be drunk – I’d likely be quite dead. We heard it from female voices, male voices, and disembodied voices that sounded like they were continents away. I’d guess we were transferred at least half a dozen times, sometimes by voice response systems that didn’t even wait for a response and just seemed to randomly transfer the call. The last time we were transferred, it was by some guy with a distinct accent — it sort of sounded Indian, but by that time the quality of the connection was so poor it was hard to tell — who told us that if we got cut off, we could call the AT&T DSL department directly on 877-722-9337 (my friend repeated the number back TWICE to make sure he’d heard it right, and I copied it down also). That number may have belonged to AT&T at one time, but now it apparently belongs to an “enhanced” directory service (that has a web site at http://www.callingten.com/). When their recording first answers, it almost sounds like you are being charged $4.95 (or some amount, it was hard to hear) for the call (I think you actually have to call a different number for that to happen, but it wasn’t really all that clear).
Anyway, when we got cut off after talking to the guy with the accent, and then getting the recording at the directory service, I finally went prowling around AT&T’s web site and found another number for Internet service – 1-800-288-2020 – and again we had to go through a voice response system and several minutes of wait. Finally we reached someone who actually tried to be helpful, but it took her several minutes to find my friend’s address in their system (he lives in an apartment complex, but still, they do offer service there, so it shouldn’t have been a major undertaking to find the address). Then she asked a bunch of questions about his phone, Internet, and television usage (I would have probably politely declined to answer, but he went along), and from that she deduced that he should order a triple play package that, if I recall correctly, would have cost over $70 a month. When he said he was just interested in the basic low-speed DSL, she then (after some more time passed) said that they could not put the DSL on the same pair as the existing phone service (well, she didn’t exactly say it that way, but that’s what we figured out that she meant, after some conversation). At least she didn’t say he couldn’t get it at all.
But the real deal killer was that apparently she wasn’t at all aware of a promotion my friend had seen online. According to him, the deal was that if you made a one-year service commitment, you got a free DSL modem and $100 back (I’m a bit skeptical about the $100 for that class of service, but I could see the free DSL modem as a possibility, given that AT&T probably buys them in bulk). However, this representative basically said he’d have to commit to service for a year or pay an early termination penalty if he dropped the service before the year was up, and she couldn’t give him anything free or in any way sweeten the offer — he’d still have to pay about $50 for a DSL modem, plus a shipping charge! It sounded as though she had no idea what deals might be offered on the web site. My friend wasn’t willing to set himself up for a possible termination charge, if for some reason he had to discontinue service (and I’m betting he wouldn’t — he’s the kind of guy that doesn’t like change much, so once they had him as a customer they’d likely have him for years — but in an apartment situation you just never know. If there is a fire or a pipe breaks or something, he could be forced to move out with very little notice). After having been on the phone for over three hours, and being told that “your call is important to us” when clearly it was NOT, his sense of humor had long since evaporated and to basically be told, “this is the deal, take it or leave it” was just a bit too much to take under the circumstances.
I don’t know if my friend will ever get DSL service now or not. He was somewhat enthused about it before this morning, but that certainly wasn’t his attitude by the time he was going into the fourth hour of phone hell. I am SO glad I don’t personally live in an area where AT&T and Comcast are the only viable choices available (my friend lives in Gaines Township which is near Wyoming, Michigan, in the Grand Rapids metro area, but not close enough to downtown to be within range of any inexpensive wireless services, as far as we know).
Why does AT&T bother to advertise the service if they don’t want people to get it? Is it just bait-and-switch – you can call in for the $19.95 offer but if they can’t upsell you to something more expensive then they don’t care if you take their service or not? I might be inclined to actually believe that, but then I realize that most of the “phone hell” occurred before they had even determined why my friend was calling.
I have three takeaways from this: First, if Comcast would just offer an entry-level DSL service for people who are, shall we say, not wealthy, they could clean AT&T’s clock. I know a lot of people don’t like Comcast and there is probably good reason for that, but I have a feeling that if my friend had been willing to pay their rate, he wouldn’t have been on the phone with them for more than ten or fifteen minutes tops. He certainly would not have been transferred all over creation because a particular rep didn’t handle Michigan, or DSL, or whatever the excuse was. Now, I have no way to know what his actual installation experience might have been, but at least trying to sign up for the service probably wouldn’t have seemed something akin to a root canal. Comcast really shoots themselves in the foot by doing that “introductory rate” nonsense — by now everyone is on to that (ironically, in part due to AT&T commercials) so what they really need is a low rate option with limited connection speed, for people who don’t do much more than check e-mail and go to a few web pages.
Second, after all this time, AT&T still acts like they are the only game in town, and that they really don’t need to give a damn whether ordering a service is a pleasant, or at least non-painful experience. In my opinion, any time a customer hears a recording saying “your call is important to us”, that’s a massive fail on the part of a company. If you really thought the call was important, you’d answer it, and to tell us the call is important to you when it clearly isn’t is a massive insult. And you wouldn’t put numbers in your television ads that go to people who have no ability to help the customer with ordering service, and who must transfer them several times before finally losing the call completely (actually terminating with a bust of hold music played at about four times normal volume, just before the call dropped entirely). And speaking of which, I thought AT&T was originally a phone company – so why is their own phone service so dreadful?
Third, the phone companies still do everything they can to inhibit competition. As I said earlier, there’s no TECHNICAL reason you can’t have voice service from one company and DSL from another on the same pair (and the plan was to drop the existing voice service anyway, but only after the DSL was working). But apparently AT&T can’t make that happen, for whatever reason. My friend doesn’t know how many usable pairs are run into each apartment (in particular, whether there’s more than one) and due to family circumstances it would be pretty difficult for me to go over there and trace out the wiring for him right now – it’s just a bit too far away, and I can’t be away that long right now.
I know from reading sites like The Consumerist that dealing with companies like AT&T is getting to be a really horrible experience, but until I listened in on my friend’s attempts to get DSL service this afternoon, I had no idea it was that bad. Now I understand why the iPhone users are so upset that Apple forged an exclusive deal with AT&T in the U.S. – based on what I heard this afternoon, the “AT&T experience” is almost the exact opposite of what Apple users have come to expect from Apple. Does AT&T have a death wish, or are they really just that incompetent?
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Nick Kwiatkowski said
Actually, depending on the CLEC, there is a technical reason why you can’t share a pair between a DSL and voice service. If they are a facilities based CLEC (think Qwest, Paytec, or TDS in our area), they actually run the entire service. Meaning your pair actually will terminate into their equipment. There is no controlled way to insert voice service into an existing DSL circuit (particularly because it is unknown what spectrum on the dry pair is in use), and visa versa.
That being said, there should be no reason why they can’t dedicate a second pair for your DSL. Most residences (including apartments) have at least two pairs going to the DMARC. A second pair is what really should be used anyway — if you dedicate the full spectrum of the pair, chances are you will have much better service (SDSL/VDSL is possible with 300 mHz capable wire — if you are closer to the CO, chances are you can get closer to 400 mHz or higher)
One thing about apartments, however, (especially in Michigan, as this story is from), AT&T and many crappy LECS put in really cheap VRADS to serve MDU’s. What they boiled down to was a T1 that went to the VRAD, and it served something like 300 – 400 residences. They allowed DS0 level service, but not much more. They absolutely didn’t allow any dedicated services like DSL. Think PBX on the side of the road.
michigantelephone said
Nick Kwiatkowski, just to comment on the first paragraph of your comment — it depends on what you mean by “facilities based.” If the CLEC runs their own lines direct to the end customer — as occasionally happens, but seldom in the case of residential customers, and definitely not in the case of my friend — then you are correct. But in the case where the ILEC owns the wires and cables connecting to the customer’s home, there is no technical reason why, when that cable pair reaches the phone company central office, they could not split off the voice and DSL portions of the bandwidth and treat them separately — running the voice to the competitor’s colo switch, for example.
Basically, what I’m saying is that if the pair from the customer comes into a particular telco’s cable vault, at their central office, then they have ultimate control. Now, it may be that regulators don’t see it that way (which is why I was careful to emphasize that there is no TECHNICAL reason it couldn’t be done), but that’s a whole other issue.
Keep in mind that in the case under discussion, my friend is getting voice-only service from what I’m 99% sure is a non-facilities-based CLEC (at least not the way I’d define facilities-based, which again would be that they run their own wires direct to his apartment). So it’s not that AT&T doesn’t know what bandwidth the CLEC is using. If the CLEC were providing DSL and AT&T were being asked to provide a voice circuit, then you might have a point, since the CLEC could be using the entire bandwidth including voice frequencies. But when the CLEC is providing voice-only residential service, you can’t tell me that AT&T doesn’t know how to drop DSL service on top of that, using the frequencies above the 3000 Hz (or whatever it is) voice cutoff. If they choose not to do that, or if a regulator says they cannot do that, that’s still not a technical reason it cannot be done.
Nick Kwiatkowski said
Having done work for both CLECS and ILECS (through an equipment vendor that supplied CO equipment for most of the Michigan Bell territory), while what you are asking for is /technicially/ able to be done, there is really no clean way to do it.
When you order a line from a facilities-based CLEC, the phone company does two things –
They prepare a dry-loop from the CPD (Customer Premise Dmarc) to the MDF of the CO. This cable-pair is then marked as “in use” in the database.
They then run a pair of purple jumper-wire from the MDF to a cable-pair that goes to the CLEC’s co-loco cage.
The CLEC would then provide all the dialtone and services to the customer. Sicne they are leasing a dry-loop, the LEC has no responsibilities for the line (other than physical maintenance), nor do they have any rights to it. Last time I checked the rate sheet, TDS paid about $4.15/mo, and Paytec paid $7.89/mo to have access to this dry loop. Note, that this also cuts out the LEC’s term and test equipment (useful if there are any problems on the line, such as a wet line, or an attinuation issue). This is why many CLECS have such a god-aweful time if there is a problem on the line.
To do what you are thinking of, the company would have to do a half-tap at the MDF and send pairs both to the co-loco cage AND the DSLAM. This could get really messy, and potentially screw up the equipment (remember, the DSLAM expect to only “see” the modem on the other side — most ASDL will scale down its SNR alg to best accomidate the closest equipment it will see — in this case a few hundred feet.
When you order DSL and have dialtone on the same line, this dialtone is often provided directly by the DSLAM. In /very/ few instances have I seen anything different.
Now, for a non-facilities based (aka, a company who resells (T)’s service), this is often doable, and will often be offered by the company. More often than not, they will offer the same packages and terms that (T) does — this also means that if your friend wanted DSL service, he could have called them up and gotten a similar package/rate. AT&T often won’t pass on promotional package pricing to resellers, but they may offer their own with a contract.
Again, I always recommend a dry-loop for DSL service. You will always get faster speeds, and more reliable service. Only in cases where it really isn’t available (AT&T dosen’t un-bundle, like in some of those heavy-lobbied states like Indiana, or if you don’t have any more pairs running into your suite), should it specifically be asked for.
Dave Miller said
For your friend, I found a wireless broadband provider that claims to have coverage in Wyoming MI… http://www.i2kwireless.com/
(actually, they’re based in Wyoming, MI)
I moved a few years ago and already had AT&T landline service… I was moving 1.5 miles from a mobile home to a real house not far away, still in the same service area. I called AT&T to get my phone line moved to the new house, and they couldn’t find my address in their system. I was assured they would locate it that night, and I should call back the next day and try again since they’ll have it in the system by then. I was first a bit annoyed because this was their problem, and they wanted ME to call them again instead of them calling me back after they found it. But I played along, and when I called the next day, they still couldn’t find it. This despite there being a cable with their name on it sticking out of the ground next to the termination panel on the side of my new house.
Charter Communications (tv cable)? Not only did they know where the new house was from the address, but they allowed me to have service in both the old and new locations at the same time for 2 weeks while we were moving (primarily for Internet service).
I gave up on AT&T and got VoIP (not from Charter, actually) on the working Internet connection. But it took my new phone company 2.5 months to weasel my existing phone number away from AT&T and port it. 2.5 months with a live phone line on a post on an empty lot formerly occupied by the mobile home I just moved out of, which I of course had to pay for, or I would have lost the phone number. Thank heavens for *72 forwarding to the new phone company’s temporary number assignment.
So yes, AT&T (landline division) sucks badly. AT&T Wireless’ customer service on the other hand, is actually pretty good. Their physical service (network, data throughput, coverage) sucks, but they have good customer service.
Why the landline people can’t be as easy to work with as the wireless folks I have no clue. Maybe it’s because they actually have competition in the wireless market? 
dan said
it took me 6 weeks from start to finish to get DSL from ATT. The worst experience I have ever had with a company. It took 7 calls and almost 4 hours total phone time (it got to be soooo bad I could only laugh and look at it as a game).
The original price they quoted me on the first call was wrong, and I couldn’t get the service for that price. Had to pay more.
Some functions on their website are incompatible with Firefox, must use IE (hey lets alienate 20% of web users right out of the gate!).
My house is pretty new, not in their database. To get my house listed was the biggest pain in the butt. I had to talk to 3 or 4 different ppl and they had to send someone out to physically verify my house was indeed there. I was told this would be done in 72 hours and I would get a call back. After 5 days, I called them. No ticket was ever issued or could be found. Funny though, this guy could add my house into their database with a simple call.
This was a common occurrence with ATT. Everytime I called and reached someone different they told me something different and had a different process for the same thing.
When you order your DSL service on their website, it takes you to their store to order a DSL modem. Price is whatever, then shipping was $13. HOWEVER, if you do not purchase it at the same time of your service, and go back and independently buy the modem, price is the same shipping is $9.99. Just a way to get a couple more dollars out of you.
I was charged for service for 4 of the weeks they were trying to install it, even though I had no service what so ever. (in their defense, they credit’d my account, but that was the 8th call i had to make in 2 months)
I was transferred no less than 2 times per phone call, once i was transferred 4 times before I got to the person who could help me. NO ONE there knows what anyone else is doing. I was given phone #s to call back, when I did they weren’t working numbers. I was transferred to a number that rang and rang (for about 10 min before i gave up) with no voice mail ever picking up. This was 20 minutes into a call, so i had to hang up and start over.
They left exposed wires in my front yard for a week (i have a 2 yr old that plays there).
In the end all I could do is laugh. ATT is done, they are a joke. They got a temporary DSL customer but lost me for a lifetime, lost my family, and lost my small business as customers. I can’t imagine going back. While I would loved to have an iPhone, last month I choose to get a Blackberry JUST to avoid ATT. I don’t even think I told the whole story here, this was just a rant about things I remember off the top of my head.
Erik Bagby said
I just fired the Blue Ball Co. (at&t) after being a Bellsouth.NET customer for 10 years. Why? good luck trying to get dry loop. I wanted to drop my dial tone because my FastAccess DSL Extreme + BASIC dial tone (NOTHING but a POTS line, no CID, CW, VM…nothing) was running 72 dollars a month.
Recently Clearwire just opened up shop and I RAN not WALKED and moved over to WiMAX. Now I pay 40 bucks a month for the same (actually faster) 6M service and no ripoff taxes, universal service fees, or hassling with people in Bangladesh to get service. In fact, the out of box experience with Clear was the simplest ever: just plugged in the modem, then the ethernet to my router and I was online. No configuration, installing bloatware or other time wasting exercises at&t is famous for.
I just called to cancel them today, never been happier to fire such a hosebag company. It’s shame too, when Bellsouth was around they were a top notch operation.
dan said
OH I forgot the best part! After the ATT guy came out and wired up the house, it didn’t work. He came back and told me the house was wired wrong, and ATT could do nothing about it without a ridiculous charge. I had an electrician friend come out check my house, he said everything was wired perfect. So HE called ATT, and they fought back and forth for a week. I didn’t even add these calls to my talley above. ATT wouldn’t tell him anything but the problem was on our end. Finally, we convinced them to send someone out again at the same time the electrician was there. Well, we got the infamous we will be there between 8 am and 5 pm bit, and we will call when we are on our way. They never called on their way, they just showed up. And, as you guessed, the problem was with the wiring TO the house, not IN the house. It was ATT fault.
Try To Get DSL From AT&T, They Dare You [Wasted Effort] | Gizmart.com said
[...] blogs at MichiganTelephone just tried to help his friend sign up for DSL from AT&T last week. Their experience was so full of fail that now his friend doesn’t even want to bother trying anymore. Yes, a customer came to [...]
jimb said
It looks like your friend should qualify for ATT’s $10/mo (1yr commitment) promo. Go to http://www.att.com/gen/general?pid=7681 and click the very bottom “See if you qualify” link.
Going through the qualification process, it says,
“If you do NOT have AT&T local phone service: Check availability by address.”
I wonder if this mean that he could get AT&T DSL while having another voice provider? (I know ATT does dry loops).
Also, to get that rate, he must sign up online (but there is an Online Chat feature..).
Specs:
IP Address: 1 Dynamic IP
Downstream Speed: Up to 768 Kbps
Upstream Speed: Up to 384 Kbps
Paul said
Actually, there is a good way to do it. It would involve AT&T’s unregulated data services arm who legally runs the DSLAMs requesting the high frequency portion of the loop with a CLEC splitter (or they could request the wire be passed through their cage and use their own splitter, as they do with AT&T POTS)
It’s the reverse of what they have CLECs who want to offer a DSL service on top of an AT&T retail line do as well (such as Covad).
Their billing system can handle this just fine, they just don’t want to sign the necessary interconnection agreement with the CLEC to do it. Why? Because they don’t have to. They can simply tell you to go away or get an AT&T POTS line. Obviously if you came to them you couldn’t get it from your CLEC anyway (they’re probably better and cheaper at doing it, if they can) so they have you where they want you. Buy their service on their terms or go pound sand.
So there is a technical, and a billing method for doing this. They COULD be doing this, they simply do not desire to, and can’t be forced to.